User talk:Ceoil

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[2] --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Animals underfoot[edit]

Hi, saw this and immediately thought of you and that tomb

Ϣere SpielChequers 08:21, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh wow, in wood and he died in 1285, thats very early! Very tempted to divert to researching the Pitchford Estate! Ceoil (talk) 00:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thought you might like that, I've categorised a huge number of photos from English churches on Commons, and this struck me as an unusual survival of prereformation woodcarving Ϣere SpielChequers 11:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Its way earlier than what I've been reading about, and interesting in that its so formative for later styles (the niches are already in place). That the wood has survived for 700 odd years is really something. Ceoil (talk) 11:21, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've just looked it up in Pevsner's book on Shropshire, two short mentions, "well preserved" "7' long" and one of two late 13th century oaken effigies in the county. Definitely something to come back to after your celtic thing. Not sure whether we should be looking at an article on that monument or the general topic of Oaken effigies from medieval England. the other 13th century one in Shropshire is at Berrington, but we don't currently have any internal shots of

Media related to All Saints Church, Berrington at Wikimedia Commons the geograph has some of the really interesting font but not the effigy. There's also a 14th century effigy at St Edith's which I suspect is File:St Edith, Eaton - Effigy - geograph.org.uk - 2246215.jpg (no dog or lion underfoot and the bier looks Victorian to me). Ϣere SpielChequers 11:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

well now you have me hooked. The simplicity of the St Edith tomb and that little is known...line and sinker. Ceoil (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This takes me back... I remember being terrified by the tomb of The Wolf of Badenoch when taken to Dunkeld Cathedral as a small child. Not because he was a scary person (he was) but because they turned him into stone along with his pet dog which they put by his feet. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:26, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nice Jim, into my top 20 the charmingly named tomb of The Wolf of Badenoc goes. I would have been terrified also, in fact...[gulp!!] Ceoil (talk) 22:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me for butting in, but there is certainly something that can be written here. I think a key piece of research here is a 1909 paper by Alfred Cooper Fryer in Archaeologia, on "Wooden Monumental Effigies in England and Wales". [7] And a revised version of that paper from 1924. More recently, there is a nice doctoral dissertation (Proefschrift) on "Early Secular Effigies in England" from the Thirteenth Century here: [8] That includes a list of 213 examples, with images, several of which are both early with either effigy or tomb/box or both in wood. We have images of most (see below), many look to be in surprisingly good condition given their age. Mostly lions at their feet, I think, not dogs. Only three have the original wooden box - Pitchford, Westminster, and Salisbury. I've not included Pitchford again below, and we don't seem to have images for two in St Mary's, Woodford, Northamptonshire.[9]

William de Valence, 1st Earl of Pembroke, Westminster Cathedral (with copper plates and enamel)
William Longespée, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, Salisbury Cathedral (stone effigy, wooden box)
Robert Curthose, Gloucester Cathedral (reconstructed base)
Southwark Cathedral
Old Sodbury, Gloucestershire
Little Horkesley, Essex (1,2,3)
Danbury, Essex (1)
Danbury, Essex (2)

The tomb of William de Valence clearly shows the early use of blank arcades as decoration, that could be filled in by "weepers" in later examples. See the discussion on p.29. We don't have a good image of the extraordinary canopied tomb of Aymer de Valence at Westminster, which is said to be the earliest example of "weepers" in England.[10] Theramin (talk) 00:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I hope to take my camera to the Abbey this year and I'll put Aymer on my list, but I think it might be too close to the High Altar. There has to be a reason why we don't have any photos of that specific monument considering how much we have from the Abbey. The lion v dog issue does remind me of the debate about the unsympathetic restoration of that part of Phillipe de Pot's monument. Ϣere SpielChequers 08:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the Wolf of Badenoch's "dog" it does appear to have a mane... Catfish Jim and the soapdish 09:54, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have made a start on expanding Pitchford based on sources provided by Theramin, but there is a lot more would like to dig into. Excellent research as always. Ceoil (talk) 21:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome. Impressed with your find of the 1924 updated version of the Fryer article at archive.com. Happy editing. Theramin (talk) 00:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks but as usual am following your lead. I'm trying to think of an umbrella article to bring these together, but coming up with naught. Tomb Sculptures from the Court of Burgundy is obvious and catchy for the other side, but for English examples, dunno. Have always been an anglophile and am besotted by the images you provided, but don't want to get drawn into adding burial foot-notes to the bios of minor knights that nobody will ever read. Ceoil (talk) 00:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Er, something like Wooden tomb effigies in medieval England? Theramin (talk) 00:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil, you and I have both worked on Tomb effigy, which could do with plenty of expansion. It averages 56 views pd, which isn't too bad. Myself, I'd sooner keep stone, alabaster & wood in the same article, as the format & style seem essentially the same. But sections on the various materials, certainly - there's stuff at Nottingham alabaster. In the later Middle Ages at least the British & French styles seem pretty similar, so a Euro-wide article is probably best until it is a lot bigger. Tomb monument and Wall tomb both go to Funerary art at present. Johnbod (talk) 03:10, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks :) Needs an iconography section! Theramin would deeply appreciate if you could suggest starting points on the Early modern section (which is outside my area). Ceoil (talk) 23:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tomb effigies of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, by Pietro Torrigiano, Westminster Abbey

Sorry, late coming back to this. (Apologies, too much other stuff going on: I hadn't expected to be worrying about parents quite so soon after the demands of children decreased, but this is life. My very strong recommendation is to settle as near to at least some family as you can bear. And so the muse has largely escaped me for some considerable time.)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "early modern" (late medieval? early renaissance? eg Donatello? even into the 16th or 17th centuries?) and I am by no means an expert either, but if it is tomb effigies you are after, we have things like the Tomb of Antipope John XXIII and the Scaliger Tombs. How about the tomb of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York (right)? Theramin (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some pickings at List of extant papal tombs. Johnbod (talk) 04:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Adam and Eve (Dürer)[edit]

Thank you. I am currently working on it, but please come again in a few days and check my wordings, I am not always sure if it's ok since English is not my mother tongue. Would be much appreciated. By the way, I am considering to split the lemma in two, if my expansion grows too much: Adam and Eve (Dürer engraving) and (... painting) respectively. MenkinAlRire 17:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think your on the way for a split. Its great to see the work. Would be happy at a later date to revisit the prose. Ceoil (talk) 21:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Table captions[edit]

Hello. Regarding your removal of table captions on Doolittle (album) here, just letting you know that they are required for all tables on Wikipedia per MOS:TABLECAPTION (part of WP:ACCESS), explained at MOS:DTT and decided upon by consensus at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Archive 15#RfC on table captions so they should not be removed. Ss112 01:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trokia[edit]

Completed copy edits and pinged Gog a while ago. Hopefully he comes back to it. Paleface Jack (talk) 19:47, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He already has, still opposing, but with a very useful list of suggest improvements. Ceoil (talk) 20:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Saw that and made some adjustments plus some questions. In terms of plot, the anthology nature and how my sources report it, leaving it as it is is for the best with some fixes on prose. Paleface Jack (talk) 00:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May music[edit]

Today's story mentions a concert I loved to hear (DYK) and a piece I loved to sing in choir, 150 years old (OTD). -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]