Talk:National syndicalism

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Not syndicalism[edit]

National syndicalism differs altogether from syndicalism. It is to syndicalism what "National Socialism" is to socialism, National-Anarchism is to anarchism, and National Bolshevism is to Leninism - a nationalist attempt at adapting a strategy to their own ends. I've put multiple citations on this matter and they keep getting deleted for what appear to be mostly conjectural reasons, so to the talk page this matter goes. Docktuh (talk) 03:04, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can keep on asserting that "National syndicalism differs altogether from syndicalism", but that is just an assertion that requires some sources to back it up. Your first attempt at this involved asserting (without any sources) that syndicalists oppose private property, you then took that unfounded assertion and combined it with a statement by José Antonio Primo de Rivera that showed an openness towards private property to support your preconceived conclusion. What you did in this scenario was a textbook example of WP:SYNTH. Your second attempt reinstates your earlier WP:SYNTH, introduces a source of questionable reliability (libcom.org), and introduces more WP:SYNTH with the other two sources you added. You can't cobble together a narrative to support your own preconceived political beliefs, if you want to say that National Syndicalism is not related to syndicalism you have to have a reliable source that explicitly says that. If you don't, you're just engaging in original research and that is not allowed on Wikipedia. On a slightly different note, back in November I reminded you of the need to provide an edit summary for your edits, could you please do so going forwards? Alssa1 (talk) 12:19, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the supposedly unfounded claim of syndicalists opposing private property, syndicalism represents a form of revolutionary (specifically libertarian) socialism. The burden of proof is, by definition, not on me, as historically there is no form of revolutionary socialism that is particularly tolerant of private property. I brought forward an article that directly cited syndicalism as anti-private property, from a website which discusses libertarian socialism (Libcom). Furthermore, if we're going to talk about political biases in this matter, you are also a self-identified anti-Marxist. That is not to say you can't produce workable input, but accusing me of bias due to political beliefs is not a stable position for you either. I would say that a third party is best here. If I find a scholarly journal that explicitly states (what should frankly be obvious) I'll add it in a later edit. Docktuh (talk) 01:01, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not how Wikipedia works. If you want to say "all syndicalists oppose private property" (or something vaguely along those lines), you have to have a reliable source that explicitly says that. Libcom does not meet the guidance requirements to be considered a reliable source, and therefore cannot have its claims taken as fact. Libcom is free to express their opinion(s) of what 'true syndicalism' is, but that doesn't mean we craft articles in 'Wikipedia's voice' taking their opinion as fact. I highly recommend that you familiarise yourself with Wikipedia's rules on partisan/biased sources (see WP:BIASED). The fact that you and I have declared our political beliefs on our respective user pages does not mean that we are arguing from the same standpoint. I believe that you have engaged in original research and synth (in breach of Wikipedia's specific guidance: WP:OR & WP:SYNTH) as well as inputting a source that doesn't meet either the bias or 'reliable source' requirements (see: WP:RS & WP:BIASED), in relation to your edits on Syndicalism. Now, if you think I've broken any of the rules, I'd be very happy for you to call me up on it. But while you do that, please review the guidance that I've inputted here (the links beginning with 'WP'). Alssa1 (talk) 21:20, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have since found sources that make this claim (you and I had a separate discussion on your own talk page) and my last edit to this page removed elements that could be interpreted as WP:SYNTH or WP:OR. I think that mentioning the various differences between syndicalism and national syndicalism is important, so as to demonstrate how it has in practice been (to quote the article) "a far-right adaptation". Because without arbitration I don't think either of us will be satisfied on the matter of whether or not it is a syndicalist ideology proper, I want to propose an agreement to return of mentioning these differences without the use of language that can be interpreted as breaking the rules. (You can see these differences on my last edit, credible sources and all). Docktuh (talk) 20:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]